Arc Welding

Post by **MikeNash** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:31 pm

Sorry to bait you, lads. It just that after a lifetime with aircraft and seeing how easy it is to get a good result with rivetting (especially when coupled with adhesives), its always puzzled me that the more difficult process of welding is favoured. Not so pretty to the layman's eye, I suppose, but when properly done (and as I say, its easy to do correctly) it should have its place. Ditto brazing. MikeN.

Post by **Orkney** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:27 am

Well look at a lotus elise e.g. thats glued together, so if you were to do a like for like repair would that be a failure?

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:13 pm

I believe the Elise was constructed from 1996-present....you cannot compare engeneering from yesterday to modern construction materials apart from anything else...materials are thinner (and getting even thinner)...Mercedes glue parts of their new cars and high pressure riveting, in fact my contacts tell me thats the way they are going too (but ask some of the guys that do the work and they will tell you..if it was their car they would prefer it to be welded)....but you must remember that we are talking about technology from the 50's 60's here. But with welding on any car modern or otherwise, it must be done properly and to a high standard. If not, then you can forget about that new M.O.T. Like BMC said, some people do apply thick layers of underseal in the hope their botched jobbie gets through....I myself never see the point in that..after all its your life thats at stake (and others too)....and how many times have you taken your new project home just to fine all those botched jobbies that someone has done in the past.....if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing properly! second rate is just not good enough!

Post by **Orkney** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:41 pm

Agree with that wholeheartedly - I'd only cover something i was truly satisfied with with underseal. In fact when i take care of a couple of points on the chassis this winter the MOT inspector will see them before they get covered in black goo.
What i was getting at though is if you have a new car thats been manufactured with 'glue' does the MOT still call for welding?

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:50 pm

Orkney wrote:Agree with that wholeheartedly - I'd only cover something i was truly satisfied with with underseal. In fact when i take care of a couple of points on the chassis this winter the MOT inspector will see them before they get covered in black goo.
What i was getting at though is if you have a new car thats been manufactured with 'glue' does the MOT still call for welding?

Hi "Orkney", like you say its always a safer option to not cover the repair with underseal till its been tested. The answer to your second part is no. If the repair to the section being inspected was a manufacturing glue jobbie its perfectly satisfactory to have it replaced by the same means. As I said in my earlier post Mercedes are now doing this when their cars are in for repair....well, so my brother-in-law tells me...hes a panel beater for Merc. Anyway, Gas Mig Welding and a Parweld Light Reactive Helmet is the way to go if your working on car bodywork. The machines are cheap to get hold of now (but watch which make you go for..some are far better than others) and Mig welding is fast and easy to learn......Like everything else...preparation is 9/10ths of a quality finish ...or makes reaching the mark of quality that bit much easier. I'm sure you knew that anyway! Just wish I had a penny for every time i've seen bad welding....get it clean, keep it clean and get penetration with the right amount of power. After all, thats what will determine the strength of your joint. But you knew that anyway

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:03 pm

With regards to the above on riveting and glueing....I've asked a few of the guys that do it for a top of the range car manufacturer....and they say, if it was their car they would prefer it welded!!!!

Post by **Alec** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:04 pm

Hello Gairlochrosie,

"Gas Mig Welding and a Parweld Light Reactive Helmet is the way to go if your working on car bodywork"

I know I'm preaching to the unconverted but I have to disagree with that statement.

Gas welding has a couple of advantages over MIG welding and as a workshop tool has very many more. Particularly for outer panels a gas weld is softer, has less or if done carefully no excess metal to remove.
The weld can easily be planished and it is much easier to correct or modify a weld as the heat and filler are independant of each other.

As I said earlier, brazing, cutting, heating metal to bend etc makes it far more versatile in the workshop.

Alec

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:19 pm

True Alec, I agree but not always convenient for the ordinary DIyer...but for the workshop yes I agree. But Gas Mig Welding is more than capable of acheiving very good results!

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:38 pm

Also check with your house insurers if you're going to store oxy/acetelene bottles at home
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Post by **Alec** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:53 pm

Hello Gairlochrosie,

I have no doubt about that but whenever a newcomer to car welding asks the reply is always MIG, without any mention of an alternative. It certainly depends on how much work someone wishes to do but there will always be those that it would benefit.

Alec

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:07 pm

Hi Alec,

Yes I understand what you are saying. I promoted the Gas Mig pure and simply because I was thinking with the ordinary DIY guy in mind. I totally agree with you that there are other methods to use. If someone is lucky enough to have a workshop to work from...of course I would have mentioned the other methods! But when I replied in the post my mind was on the ordinary guy. Therefore, I mentioned MIG because its Fast and Easy to learn and achieve real good results.

Post by **Alec** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:00 am

Hello Gairlochrosie,

fair enough.

Alec

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:59 am

Oxy acet gas welding is superior for panel work! But needs instruction and more skill than Mig- combined with the insurance problems and my suggestion is- do it on a resto course! But yes, I like gas because it encourages butting up, accurate making of the pieces and you can planish down as its softer- far less grinding needed than when dressing a mig welded piece.

(see other thread).

Rivetting and gluing is not acceptable on a Minor because that is not how they were designed to be made. Fine for aircraft because they are designed that way, but the Minor was not. Yes, spot welding has to be the best way for a minor, bur for home use and considering the car is being repaired and not built, then Mig is the best for the underside as you cannot get a spot welder in a lot of places as we are dealing with repairs not building a car from the ground up on a jig.

Post by **gairlochrosie** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:27 pm

use whatever method you wish lads. After all, its your car...stick it together with chewing gum and papier-mache if you like. I've given IMO and I'm sticking by it. Home Car DIY...Gas Mig is the way to go!!