Engine seizure - in the garage?

[Nickol]

I have just finished replacing the back axle on my 1969 Traveller and very nice it looks too. The car was on the scissor lift all the time which made the job much easier than some of the videos I have seen of people having the car on axle stands.

Anyway, went to start it for a test run and Clonk, clonk. Probably the battery needs charging I thought. Next day after overnight charge the same. So I got the starting handle out of the boot and tried to turn the engine over by hand - impossible. Would not turn a mm. Checked that it was not in gear. I even jacked the card up again so the rear wheels were clear just to make sure the propshaft could move, which it could.

So the engine is seized. It drove perfectly well in August when went into the garage for the work as it has been doing all year .

Now before I take the head off to investigate, does anyone have any thoughts as to why and how?

[Edward1949]

Strange that that engine should seize after a fairly short lay-up. Could the starter pinion have jammed against the flywheel teeth ?

[Nickol]

That is a thought, thankyou. I know it is a bit of a struggle to get to, but I can of course (hopefully) take it off and then see if I can turn the engine over with the handle.

[Edward1949]

You could try putting car in gear and pushing it backwards and forwards - this may shock the pinion into releasing. (If it is indeed the culprit )

[Bill_qaz]

Use a spanner instead of starting handle so you can rock backwards to se if it's the starter jammed.

[Nickol]

The starter motor was indeed the culprit. I did try rocking the car forwards and backwards to no avail so ended up raising it on the lift and removing the starter. According to Haynes, you have to remove the distributor to get it out but this was not necessary, only the cap. Once out, this did free up the engine which I could turn with the starter handle. What a relief!!

Now I must check why it jammed? The sliding/moving part does seem quite free but I have oiled the drive shaft anyway and will clean it up a bit before putting it back in. Is it recommended to do some maintenance on the starter so it does not jam again? The teeth seem ok in that none are broken but perhaps just a little worn,

[svenedin]

You must not oil the Bendix on a starter motor. It initially seems like a good idea but over time dirt sticks to the oil and then the Bendix gear will jam again.

To clean the Bendix you need a special tool called a Bendix spring compressor (it is very dangerous to attempt to compress the spring without the proper tool). The you can clean everything up and then use a "dry" lubricant such as graphite powder or the more modern PTFE lubricant.

I will post a photo of my Bendix spring compressor if I can find it! If the Bendix gear is very worn you can buy new old stock ones.

Stephen

[Nickol]

I think that as I am visting England in early dezember, I will pick up an exchange unit whilst I am there, just to be sure.

[svenedin]

I think that as I am visting England in early dezember, I will pick up an exchange unit whilst I am there, just to be sure.

Good idea but make sure it is a genuine exchange Lucas starter motor and not a Far East copy.

Stephen

[geoberni]

You must not oil the Bendix on a starter motor. It initially seems like a good idea but over time dirt sticks to the oil and then the Bendix gear will jam again.

To clean the Bendix you need a special tool called a Bendix spring compressor (it is very dangerous to attempt to compress the spring without the proper tool). The you can clean everything up and then use a "dry" lubricant such as graphite powder or the more modern PTFE lubricant.

I will post a photo of my Bendix spring compressor if I can find it! If the Bendix gear is very worn you can buy new old stock ones.

Stephen

Here's a good video to show a complete Cowboy taking the Spring off the end.
He even explains how dangerous it is, all because he's too dumb to either buy the right tool, rent one, or even make one.
https://youtu.be/R6CR_8efA88?t=172
He's in a fully equipped garage and he can't make one out of some steel bar??

Without dismantling, the Bendix can always be thoroughly washed in solvent and then dry lubricated, PTFE or Graphite Powder.

Now I must check why it jammed? The sliding/moving part does seem quite free but I have oiled the drive shaft anyway and will clean it up a bit before putting it back in. Is it recommended to do some maintenance on the starter so it does not jam again? The teeth seem ok in that none are broken but perhaps just a little worn,

So although this guy is pretty dangerous with the Mole Grips, at the end of the video, around the 08:40 mark, he has some good info which might explain your stuck Starter.

Here's a photo of the correct tool.
It's important to get the right one as there are different sizes. See this post from Phil for part number: viewtopic.php?p=701943#p701943

Bendix tool.JPG (41.3 KiB) Viewed 5791 times

[Nickol]

So I picked up the exchange unit starter from ESM, who kindly let me come after hours to pick it up as the ferry arrived too late. Now back home again I have installed it but alas, the "klonk,klonk! upon operating the key still persists, albeit in a different tone than before.

My logic tells me that perhaps the solenoid in faulty. As a precaution I picked up a spare from ESM as part of my order. Before I exchange it in the car though, I wanted to ask in the forum if perhaps there is something else to consider ?

Is it an idea to by pass the solenoid itself by connecting, or rather touching with the main feed wire having first disconnected it from its permanent position, to the other connection of the solenoid? This would prove the functionality of the starter (assuming it turned ok) and non funtioning solenoid.

[philthehill]

What was the condition of the starter ring?
If the starter ring is chewed up the Bendix can jam and cause the problem you are experiencing.

[oliver90owner]

One quadrant on the ring gear will likely be worn more than the others because the engine will come to rest at the same place more often on the strongest compression stroke (these engines have often been reconned after cylinder/piston/valve combinations have led to disparate compression pressures between cylinders).

Your continuing woes could be the solenoid or even a simple poor earth connection between engine and chassis or chassis to battery. Poor connections will often heat up very quickly, so battery connectors can soon get hot to the touch if the fault is there.

I once tried to start a ford with a metal fuel pipe, which was trying to take the full starter motor load. Don’t think it carried enough current for the starter motor!

[Nickol]

What was the condition of the starter ring?
If the starter ring is chewed up the Bendix can jam and cause the problem you are experiencing.

good that you mention that. i have turned the engine over already with the krank and did an inspection of the starter ring ( as far as is possible ) before refitting the starter. I did not notice anything unusual.

[Nickol]

Your continuing woes could be the solenoid or even a simple poor earth connection between engine and chassis or chassis to battery. Poor connections will often heat up very quickly, so battery connectors can soon get hot to the touch if the fault is there.

This will be my next task checking this I think, but it will have to wait until at least Sunday now. Maybe on driving onto the ramp disturbed something. Will check.

[Nickol]

Just got in from the workshop. No positive result yet, I am sorry to say.

I have replaced the old solenoid with a brand new one because it was looking very worn. Connected everything up; turned the key to start and not even a klonk. Nothing. Battery is reading 12,8 V so no problem there. The red/white starter wire from the ignition reads also 12,8 when activated. I reluctanty bridged the terminals over the solenoid - again nothing, not even a spark. Similarly when making a direct connection from the battery to the starter motor cable. Nothing.

The only thing I can think of now is that the new starter motor is faulty. Perhaps I should have checked it before installing but that is hindsight. The new (reconditioned) had a a sort of shield at one end which was there to cover access holes in the motor casing. I had to remove it by releasing the holding bolts as it was impossible to install the motor with the flanged part of this shield fouling the chassis rail. After installing the Motor I put it back. I suppose it is perfectly possible that I have disturbed the motor innerds somehow so the next step will be to remove the motor and test it on the bench.

All the other electrics are working normally so I have ruled out a bad earth.

[Andmurph]

It may be worth checking continuity between the starter motor terminal connecting to the solenoid and earth. When connecting the solenoid wire to the back end of the starter motor it’s very easy to turn the post and break the connection on the inside.
Hopefully this isn’t the case but it’s worth checking.

[Nickol]

Thankyou but I do not think I quite understand. I have checked continuity between starter terminal and solenoid terminal which is ok. For my understanding, the starter body will be earthed through the chassis. The solenoid does not need earthing........???
I may find something once I have removed the starter-

[Andmurph]

Indeed, check continuity from the post on the back to the case. It’s not difficult to break the wire off the inside of the post where the solenoid wire is connected when replacing the solenoid.
When tightening the nut if not careful or unlucky the post can turn and break the connection inside.

[Nickol]

I see what you mean now. As I removed the old solenoid this is indeed what happened and the copper piece with the threaded end broke off. No big deal as it was going in the bin anyway. the new one bolted up very easily and there is no danger of a breakage.