Dead electrical starting

[akuchanny]

So I had a dead battery which I foolishly tried to start my 61 two door saloon with. It’s running a 1360 with a high torque starter.

The car is negative earth.

I tried to start the car and it sluggishly turned over almost caught and then died with nothing on the pull starter.

Charged the battery and everything lights up all fuses read 12 volts or more with a circuit tester BUT nothing happens when you try to start the car. Nothing turns it just sits there motionless.

I have tried it with the crank - something I’ve only managed once before. It turns over with the resistance you’d expect from a healthy engine, but not having the knack I haven’t been able to get it to start.

I have charged the battery it’s holding 12.9 volts un connected to the car. even got Halfords to check it under warranty - it looks to be all okay from my tests with a multi meter and their battery machine.

The dash lights come on, the head lights work so does the interior light and the radio, and it looks like all the other electrical sections of the car.

But still no turning when you try to start the car the pull starter stays out when pulled and doesn’t slide back in like it always has.

I got a 12v plus reading on the solenoid terminals leading to the battery positive and the starter motor cable with the ignition on and the under hood button pushed in, although it’s difficult to get the reading to show without really working the probe in, and the terminals are rusty.

I have not been able to get under the car to check the starter. I can’t bridge the starter with a screw driver as the terminals are blocked by the dizzy. And the negative has a protective cover. But will try to check them somehow. Maybe jumping with a cable.

Would low power damage the starter? It’s only a few years old. So hope I don’t have to replace it.

I’m hoping it’s the solenoid- how likely do you all think this is?

The down side is the drive the car is on is gravel and sloped. So not ideal for working on it and it’s been raining most of the day today. All in all a bad day to work on a car.

Any help or insights would be hugely appreciated

Andy.

[myoldjalopy]

If the pull button inside the car is not returning then I suggest you look under the dash to see if its cable is firmly attached to the starter switch (what you call the solenoid). You may need to remove a glovebox to see properly.
However, if you are getting 12v at the starter motor side of the switch when you press in the button, it suggests that the switch is working.
I don't see why you would want to 'bridge the starter with a screwdriver'. In any case, the starter motor only has one terminal, the feed wire. It earths through its bolt-on attachment . I'd be checking the connection to the starter and whether the starter is securely bolted on. And check the gearbox earth cable is present/attached properly.

[oliver90owner]

You should not be getting 12 Volts across the starter switch - whether mechanically or electrically operated. When the starter motor is in operation the full battery voltage (likely somewhat less than when checked initially, but still close to battery voltage.

That indicates an open circuit on the starting motor side of the switch. If you only measured the voltage on the supply side of the switch (as I suspect), it is more likely that the switch is either faulty or not actuated.

[myoldjalopy]

Oh, I just saw you have a high torque starter. Sorry, I carelessly missed that - my earlier comments refer to the standard starter motor.

[oliver90owner]

Is he meaning a pre-engaged starter? Hi-torque only refers to the amount of turning power available, not the bendix or pre-engagement arrangement.

[simmitc]

As it appears to be a pull start, I suspect that MyOldJalopy may have hit the mail on the head (above).

Andy, look in the engine bay, on the bulkhead, and locate the starter switch. Between the two big terminals should be, not so much a button, but a rod. If you press that in, does the engine turn over? When an assistant pulls on the starter knob, does the rod on the switch move in? I have known the contacts fail in these switches, but never the return spring - still, there could be a first time for everything.

[geoberni]

Is he meaning a pre-engaged starter? Hi-torque only refers to the amount of turning power available, not the bendix or pre-engagement arrangement.

A 'High Torque' Starter has a gearbox attached to it. A modern electric motor spinning really fast, with a reduction gearbox to the output .
Intention being:

• Approximately twice as powerful as the original. Consequently, they run faster and start the engine more easily.

• They draw about half the current of an original starter putting less strain on the battery and electrical system of the vehicle.

• Weight can be reduced up to 50% from conventional starters.

• The starters are usually smaller and easier to fit than the standard starter motors.

• Increased reliability due to use of modern materials and components.

Can't see a point to them myself at least as far as Minors...the A Series engine can be started by a starting handle, so why treat it like it's a Main Battle Tank Engine...

See here:

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ ... tegory/252

[cyrus]

geoberni wrote:

Can't see a point to them myself at least as far as Minors...the A Series engine can be started by a starting handle, so why treat it like it's a Main Battle Tank Engine...

Not quite a Main Battle tank but here is an offgrid chap, a blacksmith going by the name Maximus Ironthumper who starts an ex Russian army truck with a 6.0L V8 petrol engine using the starting handle provided. I don't think those trucks had starter motors. I suppose the compression ratio of 6.5:1 helps a bit

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=fkOVtrkdmAY

[geoberni]

Certainly a beast of a truck.
I liked the fact that the compressor was linked directly to the tyres somehow.
That's some complex pipework just to inflate the tyres from in the cab.
Some of the British Military Bedford MKs had compressors inbuilt, but it was just a long airline in a long thin side box under the load deck, LH side if I recall correctly.

[oliver90owner]

Not watched it (yet - I may do later) but the first thing that caught my attention was the apparent ‘wrap-around’ grip on the starting handle.

[akuchanny]

Okay thanks for the replies.

The reason for the high torque motor is a blue printed race spec 1360 /1380 abs the old started broke its gear so thought an upgrade would not hurt.

I have changed the pull starter for a new unit. It was connected. And the rod was pushing in and out. But the new starter has not made any difference.

As it died during cranking with a low battery I think that the starter had been damaged by a low voltage draw. I have tried running a cable from the battery direct to the starter and no dice. Sparked on contact but did not turn. Does anyone have any other ways to test a starter?

Andy

[philthehill]

The standard 'A' series starter motor is more than adequate for a 1360cc/1380cc race tuned engine.
I use the later standard 'A' Series starter motor to start a full race 140bhp 1380cc engine and I have never encountered any problems over many years of use.

[akuchanny]

Found out it was a dead high torque starter in the end. Have refitted the orginal until and it’s up and running. Although I think the bendix spring will need to be replaced sometime soon.

Have noticed that I am missing a few bolts from the cover on the back of the starter motors where the gear conects to the box and the engine plate - the cover over this is now loose and missing a couple of bolts. Does anyone have any idea what type these are. I have asked a few parts suppliers and they did not carry them