Hi All
Picked up Morris Traveller 1970 from my dad's in Southend last weekend and now in Chelmsford so as to go on the Essex rally / quiz next saturday 4th June.
Family had her since 71.
Was MOTd just 2 weeks ago.
But today went to take her out for a spin and brakes practically not working as I drove down the driveway.
I thought they weren't that great the other day but seem worse today.
Lots of pedal travel then very ineffective although OK just Thurs evening.
Any obvious things I can check to see what the problem is or anyone know anyone that might be able to have a look and fix it ?
Thanks
Alison
1970 Traveller brake prob
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Wishbone ash
- Newbie
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Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Alison
Where there any signs of leaking brake fluid on the ground where the car was parked ? Check the brake fluid level in the
master cylinder.
If the car is standard then this will be under the "hatch " in the driver's side foot well ( the handbook / workshop manual/Haynes Manual will illustrate ).Unscrew the perimeter , clean the cap and surrounding area with Kitchen roll and then remove the cap.Don't get dirt in the fluid under any circumstances . Is it full of fluid or empty ? If the chassis box section is awash with fluid you have a problem.
Other sources of leaks would be the metal brake lines and connections and the brake wheel cylinders ( x 4 ).
If the car has been subsequently fitted with a remote brake fluid reservoir , that and the pipework to the original master cylinder will need to be checked.
Leaks from the wheel cylinders will be seen on the inside of the steel wheels where it drips down onto the rim.
The pipework leaks will be evidenced by damp patches.
If the MOT was only done recently that suggests that it might be failure of the seal in the master cylinder. If there are no obvious leaks this is the probably cause.
People on the Forum generally advise that is not worth mucking around with just putting a new seal in , replacement with a new one is recommended. The braking system will need to be filled with brake fluid and bled afterwards.
I would suggest the car is not driven until someone ,who knows what they are doing , has a look at it. No working brakes on a car is not recommended. Car bits can be replaced , lives can't.
Hopefully someone in the Club locally can have a look at it for you.
Bob
Where there any signs of leaking brake fluid on the ground where the car was parked ? Check the brake fluid level in the
master cylinder.
If the car is standard then this will be under the "hatch " in the driver's side foot well ( the handbook / workshop manual/Haynes Manual will illustrate ).Unscrew the perimeter , clean the cap and surrounding area with Kitchen roll and then remove the cap.Don't get dirt in the fluid under any circumstances . Is it full of fluid or empty ? If the chassis box section is awash with fluid you have a problem.
Other sources of leaks would be the metal brake lines and connections and the brake wheel cylinders ( x 4 ).
If the car has been subsequently fitted with a remote brake fluid reservoir , that and the pipework to the original master cylinder will need to be checked.
Leaks from the wheel cylinders will be seen on the inside of the steel wheels where it drips down onto the rim.
The pipework leaks will be evidenced by damp patches.
If the MOT was only done recently that suggests that it might be failure of the seal in the master cylinder. If there are no obvious leaks this is the probably cause.
People on the Forum generally advise that is not worth mucking around with just putting a new seal in , replacement with a new one is recommended. The braking system will need to be filled with brake fluid and bled afterwards.
I would suggest the car is not driven until someone ,who knows what they are doing , has a look at it. No working brakes on a car is not recommended. Car bits can be replaced , lives can't.
Hopefully someone in the Club locally can have a look at it for you.
Bob
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oliver90owner
- Minor Legend
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Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Questions:
Does the pedal travel improve if you pump it, without letting it completely off? Brakes need serious adjustment or master cylinder possibly at fault.
Is it spongy? If it is, there is air in the system - could be low on fluid (likely been a slave leaking).
How is it if the hand brake is mostly, but not fully on? Improvement may mean brake adjuster(s) have failed or something awry in the rear drums.
It is likely the master cylinder is failing if full of fluid and brakes are properly adjusted . Brakes certainly need checking over and rectifying before using on the road. Most times the brakes work until there is no fluid left, then fail if there is a leak elsewhere (than internally in the master cylinder).
RAB
Does the pedal travel improve if you pump it, without letting it completely off? Brakes need serious adjustment or master cylinder possibly at fault.
Is it spongy? If it is, there is air in the system - could be low on fluid (likely been a slave leaking).
How is it if the hand brake is mostly, but not fully on? Improvement may mean brake adjuster(s) have failed or something awry in the rear drums.
It is likely the master cylinder is failing if full of fluid and brakes are properly adjusted . Brakes certainly need checking over and rectifying before using on the road. Most times the brakes work until there is no fluid left, then fail if there is a leak elsewhere (than internally in the master cylinder).
RAB
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
If leaking fluid the remedy is obvious - otherwise probably just needs a good adjustment all round.
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Wishbone ash
- Newbie
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Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Hi All
Thanks for the responses. Most helpful.
Had the master cylinder cap off and resovoir empty !
Looked underneath at the inside of the steel wheels and can't see any leaks there.
Looked underneath the master cylinder and a bit oily generally but mainly on the gearbox. Doesn't seem to be particularly oily on the master cylinder side on the box frames.
Oil on the gearbox looks like been there a long time.
Can get some brake fluid I guess from halfords tomorrow and fill it up but where did the old lot go ?
If I fill it up and brakes working again then I'll be suspicious it'll happen again ?
Alison
Thanks for the responses. Most helpful.
Had the master cylinder cap off and resovoir empty !
Looked underneath at the inside of the steel wheels and can't see any leaks there.
Looked underneath the master cylinder and a bit oily generally but mainly on the gearbox. Doesn't seem to be particularly oily on the master cylinder side on the box frames.
Oil on the gearbox looks like been there a long time.
Can get some brake fluid I guess from halfords tomorrow and fill it up but where did the old lot go ?
If I fill it up and brakes working again then I'll be suspicious it'll happen again ?
Alison
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
You'll pay a fortune in Hellfrauds.... The fluid must have gone somewhere - you MUST find the leak. And they will need bleeding anyway. DO NOT drive the car - remove all brake drums and inspect the cylinders..
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Wishbone ash
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Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
OK ta.
Looks like off to a garage then or a mechanic comes to me.
The car is looked after well by a garage in Southend but can't get her there now unless on a transporter.
Anyone know a good firm for Minors in Chelmsford?
Alison
Looks like off to a garage then or a mechanic comes to me.
The car is looked after well by a garage in Southend but can't get her there now unless on a transporter.
Anyone know a good firm for Minors in Chelmsford?
Alison
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Most jobs on a Minor can be done by the owner. If you fancied giving it a go then we can offer plenty of advice. Brakes are a safety critical component so it might not be the best place to start fixing things, but you could certainly investigate and locate the source of the problem for yourself, if you wanted to start learning...
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
As above - the key (and half the fun) to Minor ownership is doing the jobs yourself. You'll need deep pockets if you run to a 'garage' for everything... Brakes are NOT difficult - to find the workshop manual for FREE - Google 'Morris Minor Workshop Manual' - it's there as a PDF - just save it and read the pages you need when you need them - or print off the bits you need. I don't suggest printing the whole Manual !!
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Let's check inside the brake drums to see if any slave cylinders are leaking.
Start with the car on firm level ground ready to jack up one wheel at a time. Chock the rmaining wheels so that the car will not move. Remove the hub cap and slightly loosen the 4 wheel nuts.
Use a jack to raise the car so that the wheel is clear of the ground (see separate notes on jacking) and suypport on stands - do not rely on just the jack..
Remove the wheel nuts and wheel. There should be two cross head screws holdinng the drum to the hub. Remove those. There is a hole in the brake drum. Look through that (a torch ight be useful) and rotate the drum until you can see the brake adjuster screw. This is a flat head screw. Turn it anticlockwise to release any binding of the shoes. Note: fronmt wheels have two adjusters opopsite eachother. Rear wheels have just one adjuster.
If you do not know the history of the car then ensure that you are wearing a dust mask as there could be very old shoes with asbestos dust present. Remove the brake drum. Apart from dust, everything inside should be clean and free from any trace of fluid. If any of the cylinders are leaking it should be obvious. If the shoes have been contaminated then they will need replacing - always reaplce both sides on the same axle at the same time, even if the other side is OK.
If a leak is found then rpeort back for advice on changing cylinders. If no leak then reassamble (reverase of above procedure). Adjust brakes by turning adjuster(s) clockwise until the drum is locked and then back off 1 or 2 clicks so that the drum spins without binding.
Repeat for all four wheels. If you find one leak, still check the other wheels as there could be more than one problem.
Good luck.
Start with the car on firm level ground ready to jack up one wheel at a time. Chock the rmaining wheels so that the car will not move. Remove the hub cap and slightly loosen the 4 wheel nuts.
Use a jack to raise the car so that the wheel is clear of the ground (see separate notes on jacking) and suypport on stands - do not rely on just the jack..
Remove the wheel nuts and wheel. There should be two cross head screws holdinng the drum to the hub. Remove those. There is a hole in the brake drum. Look through that (a torch ight be useful) and rotate the drum until you can see the brake adjuster screw. This is a flat head screw. Turn it anticlockwise to release any binding of the shoes. Note: fronmt wheels have two adjusters opopsite eachother. Rear wheels have just one adjuster.
If you do not know the history of the car then ensure that you are wearing a dust mask as there could be very old shoes with asbestos dust present. Remove the brake drum. Apart from dust, everything inside should be clean and free from any trace of fluid. If any of the cylinders are leaking it should be obvious. If the shoes have been contaminated then they will need replacing - always reaplce both sides on the same axle at the same time, even if the other side is OK.
If a leak is found then rpeort back for advice on changing cylinders. If no leak then reassamble (reverase of above procedure). Adjust brakes by turning adjuster(s) clockwise until the drum is locked and then back off 1 or 2 clicks so that the drum spins without binding.
Repeat for all four wheels. If you find one leak, still check the other wheels as there could be more than one problem.
Good luck.
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
See this thread: http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... 45#p584645 for a discussion on jacking.
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
For the rear wheels ...the handbrake will have to be " off ". So make sure that the axle stands are secure and that the front wheels are chocked so the car can't move. Put the handbrake back " on " before lowering the car after your inspection.
Bob
Bob
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Not only 'OFF' - but slacken the cables at the hand lever before tightening the adjusters - and then finally tighten them up again to give even grip on each wheel, and the lever just where you like it. ie 2 clicks or 3 - although of course we never 'click' the handbrake - press the button as you pull up then release the ratchet.
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Wishbone ash
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Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Hi All
Many thanks for all the posts and advice.
Had the car fixed now.
It was the brake master cylinder.
The mechanic got a new master cylinder ok and thought probably the seals kit may not have been avail. but I'm happier with a new master cylinder.
Brakes really good now !
The mechanic said he really enjoyed working on her as old tech. and got some of his old spanners out, but one wonders why Morris put the master cylinder there and having to do so much undoing work to get it out.
Plenty of room under the bonnet isn't there ?
Couple of other issues.
Firstly, the petrol pump.
This is quite noisy although its comparatively new.
You can hear it clicking noticeably when driving, of course clicking away rapidly when accelerating or going uphill, and slower when cruising. Like a heart beat really !?
I didn't recall ever hearing the pump clicking / pulsing so loudly ever before.
Can live with it or should I change the pimp for a particular better type or maybe re fix with some rubber between the fixings and back of bulkhead ?
Finally, speed dial needle jumps about all over the place, and, mainly initially when cold, another noise, as well as fuel pump, which relates to the speed of driving.
Reckon its the speedo cable.
How easy to service or replace this ?
Thanks again
Paul (Alisons hubby)
Many thanks for all the posts and advice.
Had the car fixed now.
It was the brake master cylinder.
The mechanic got a new master cylinder ok and thought probably the seals kit may not have been avail. but I'm happier with a new master cylinder.
Brakes really good now !
The mechanic said he really enjoyed working on her as old tech. and got some of his old spanners out, but one wonders why Morris put the master cylinder there and having to do so much undoing work to get it out.
Plenty of room under the bonnet isn't there ?
Couple of other issues.
Firstly, the petrol pump.
This is quite noisy although its comparatively new.
You can hear it clicking noticeably when driving, of course clicking away rapidly when accelerating or going uphill, and slower when cruising. Like a heart beat really !?
I didn't recall ever hearing the pump clicking / pulsing so loudly ever before.
Can live with it or should I change the pimp for a particular better type or maybe re fix with some rubber between the fixings and back of bulkhead ?
Finally, speed dial needle jumps about all over the place, and, mainly initially when cold, another noise, as well as fuel pump, which relates to the speed of driving.
Reckon its the speedo cable.
How easy to service or replace this ?
Thanks again
Paul (Alisons hubby)
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Well done on the brakes. Fuelpump -if not an SU (Hardy??) can indeed be noisy. Some mount them on little rubber mounts.
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Speedo cable will cause symptoms described. Easyily available and easy to fit: Disconnect battery. Loosen (not remove) two speedo retaining screws accessed from glovebox, pull speedo out to reach and disconnect the cable. The other end is unscrewed from the side of the gearbox (ensure that car is safely supported before working underneath). Refit is reverse of above. Make sure that the inner cable is engaged in the drive spigots.
Re: 1970 Traveller brake prob
Sometimes the cable just needs 're-aligning' / re-routing and a wipe of grease over the inner cable - but NOT the last 2 " at the speedo head which should be left dry.....