Water pump - permissible play?

[ribs]

My crankshaft pulley exploded whilst driving - throwing a large v-shaped piece up onto the underside of the bonnet, but amazingly, missing the radiator completely. The timimg chain was due to be changed when the weather warms up (I have to work outside) but It may as well be done now, seeing as I have to change the pulley. Checking the water pump, I find slight play in the bearings. The pump is the alloy type and I managed to screw in a grease nipple and pump in some grease. Turning it, it feels fine with no roughness, but there is perceptible play. How much, if any, play is permissible? The pump was new in August 2013.
Regards and a belated Happy New Year to all.

[philthehill]

Sorry to hear about your crankshaft pulley.
There should be absolutely no play in the bearings.
Play in the bearings could lead to water pump failure and at best a coolant leak from the water pump seal and at worst a seized engine.
Water pumps are cheap enough and better to change it when you are doing the other work than have to do it all over again at a later date which may include changing the engine.
Better safe than sorry.
Happy new year to you too.
Phil

[mogbob]

Are there any visible leaks on the outside of the pump , anywhere ?
I'd be happy , if no leaks , with "just perceptible " play ... say under a millimetre.

Just over two years old ought be good for another few years ( you never know about the quality until later ! ).
The other take on it is that new ones aren't all that expensive.Too many replacement parts these days are a bit of a lottery.
Bob

[IslipMinor]

The water pump is not designed to have any play in the bearings, so while you have to work at the front of the engine, I would definitely change the pump at the same time.

Are you going to replace the crankshaft pulley with the 1275 'damped' type? Is yours a 1098 or 948 engine? If it is a 1098, I would suggest fitting the 1275 type pulley, as it gives the crankshaft an easier time.

[philthehill]

Not only do the damper but fit a duplex timing chain and gears.
You are going to have to remove the crankshaft and cam gears (sprockets) even if you want to replace the original chain and tensioner rings.
Fitting the duplex set up is virtually fit and forget.
You will need the flat oil thrower plate (Pt No: 12A1148 (MOSS)) when fitting the duplex.
Change the timing gear cover oil seal whilst you are at it.
It may be beneficial the check the camshaft thrust plate (Pt No: AHU2379 (MOSS)) wear whilst you have the cam gear off.
Phil

[ribs]

Thanks for all the advice. The engine is a 948 in a 1957 saloon that is in daily use.

[philthehill]

Your car engine is in all probability fitted with timing chain cover with the felt seal. It is a good move to fit the later cover (Pt No: 12A1419 (MOSS)) which has the neoprene lip seal (Pt No: 88G561 (MOSS)) which is much better at keeping the engine oil inside the cover.

[ribs]

Thanks Phil, you gave me this advice in a post about a year ago and acting upon it I have obtained the later type cover with the lip oil seal - now that I will be sorting the timing chain, it will be fitted then and hopefully, cut down the amount of oil going onto the drive. I decided against the duplex kit because it requires drilling and with the front end in place, there isn't room - even with one of those 90 degree drill chucks. As I said, the car is in daily use, so I can't be messing about with lots of seized fasteners on the front end. Come Summer, (ever the optimist) my wife will use her motorbike to get to work, and the front can be seen to - in addition to a 25 y.o motorhome, a 1949 Riley RMA and 3 classic motorbikes - all clamouring for attention. For now though, the Moggie has to be back on the road a.s.a.p.

[bmcecosse]

Unless you can get a damper at a v reasonable price - it's WAY overkill for that engine and it's intended use - as frankly is the duplex chain idea. However - unless you intend to just fit a new (simplex) chain - you may as well go duplex since the parts will cost little (if any) more. But do be sure to countersink the two screw holes behind the crank sprocket.
Edit - I note you have already decided not going duplex.

[philthehill]

Ribs
I note your comment and understand and respect your reasons for not fitting the duplex.
But for those reading this - fitting a duplex chain and sprockets is not overkill as bmc would have it - it makes economic sense.
Unless the sprockets are recently new the old chain will have worn the sprocket teeth to a profile that is not conducive to the new chain.
Fitting a new chain to old sprockets will result in rapid wear of the chain.
So when replacing the chain you have the following choices:-
Replace the chain and the qty 2 tensioner rings but keep the old sprockets @ £7.40. (which will result in rapid wear of the new chain).
Replace the crankshaft sprocket (which is used at twice the rate of the cam sprocket so wears more rapidly), the chain and the two tensioner rings @ £ 19.34. (This is not good as the new chain will have two different tooth profiles to work against - again leading to rapid wear of the chain).
Replace both the chain, qty 2 tensioner rings and the two sprockets @ £ 34.09. (good but the rubber tensioning rings soon loose their tensioning ability and you are back to square one very quickly).
Replace the single row chain and sprockets with the duplex set up (Pt No: AJJ3325 (MOSS)) @ £ 26.75. (Very good as virtually fit and forget).
The above prices are current but less the usual.
So there you have it and you can make your own mind up.
Phil

[bmcecosse]

Indeed - as I suggested -the price for a duplex set-up is not excessive (although I am surprised it works out LESS then a new simplex set) but does have the slight snag of needing the two holes countersunk. depending on the use - I suggest a new simplex chain will last for many a mile - and if the car is only used as a summer week-end car - that could be many years for little money spent. But you have to weigh up the options as listed above - and make your own choice !

[amgrave]

Do you get the two counter sunk screws in the duplex kit?

[philthehill]

Looking at the MOSS page for the duplex kit it does not show the screws in the illustration but they may well be included.
Looking at the Mini Spares page the screws are included:-
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... .aspx|Back to

What ever kit you use these are the best countersunk screws you can use as they have the allen keyed head and these are the ones I always use:-
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... .aspx|Back to.

I always Loctite the countersunk allen screws in place.