Spring hanger front collapsed - repair strategy

[nam]

Hi,

I have read a few threads already on spring hanger repair however I still need some guidance! I had a proper look under mine yesterday and found that the front spring hangers have collapsed and are practically under the seat. I don't want to remove the axle or engine but am thinking of jacking the car up high on the side I want to work on.

Few questions:

1 - Do I need to get some 1.5mm steel or can I use the 1.2mm I have already been using?
2 - I'm planning to make two big pieces on either side and cut out most of the old metal that is practically not there anyway, do I weld up-to the edge of the new floor I put in or go overlap a little bit?
3 - Where would my jacking points be to raise the body off from the spring hanger to get it to be away from the body so I can insert the new sheet?
4 - I want to leave the spring hanger attached until I can line up where the front spring hanger will need to be welded as I have no reference points right now
5 - In the last picture i've ordered spring hanger fronts and it looks like it already has the locating plate welded to it so I assumne I don't need to buy another?

PIC 1 - Drivers side
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PIC 2 PASSENGER SIDE
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[bmcecosse]

There is SO much rust there (and so little metal left..) I suggest you need the car on it's side to do any sensible repairs. And presumably the other side is equally poor condition? Measure the 'good' side carefully so you know precisely how far back from a known datum point the front spring eye has to be - or you will end up with a crabbing car!

[nam]

There is SO much rust there (and so little metal left..) I suggest you need the car on it's side to do any sensible repairs. And presumably the other side is equally poor condition? Measure the 'good' side carefully so you know precisely how far back from a known datum point the front spring eye has to be - or you will end up with a crabbing car!

There is no "Good" side i've labelled the first two pictures above. I don't want to take the engine out as i'm not that confident on my own so plan to try it on the floor. I was thinking to raise the body off the axle to get the hanger away from it's current position so i can weld in new metal. Then where the old hanger sits on the new metal just weld a new one in there??

[Mark Wilson]

You've a serious job on your hands there. The rear floor you've used has a raised side and rear, but these are really only cosmetic cover plates and shouldn't replace the main sill step and seat box. These are vital structural elements, as is the curving chassis section which extends from the sill step to the rear bump stop. Your photos show all these to have pretty much disappeared, and you need to fabricate and piece in new steel, at least 1.5mm thick. The spring hanger plate needs to be plug welded to the flanges at the bottom of the seat box section and the curved chassis, but at the moment you've virtually nothing there to weld to.

Leaving the spring attached won't help with alignment as it moves backwards and forwards on the rear shackles - as Roy suggests you need to take lots of careful measurements from anything still in place on the other side. You will need to remove the axle before you try raising the car, as it is very heavy. There is a serious danger, to be honest an absolute certainty, that the axle will fall if you manage to raise the rear of the car with it attached to what is left of the structure. You could be seriously injured or even killed if that comes down on you.

Sorry to sound so negative, but even Minors aren't worth risking your life for!

[les]

What is the condition of the front chassis legs, and the rest of the car? You need to be sure it's worth doing.

[ianmack]

That is one rusty Minor! Having done both I would say that removing engine, box and axle will be a lot more straighforward than trying to do all that welding upwards from underneath. I'd certainly recommend turning it on its side, I have the scars!

[bmcecosse]

Compared with the work you are planning - removing the engine will be a 'walk in the park' ! If there is no good side - then you will need to get measurements from another vehicle. It's essential to get the axle located correctly. Others above have given you excellent advice - and I agree - survey the whole car before you start - it may very well be beyond economic (or even sensible) repair...

[nam]

What is the condition of the front chassis legs, and the rest of the car? You need to be sure it's worth doing.

Hi,

I need some encouragement as i'm not going to give up on it now. Here is the resto thread http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=100

I know a lot of people would have given up by now but i'm stubborn and bought it blind so my fault but willing to put effort to save it.

Ok front chassis etc all ok i've had a member from the forum visit and look with me as well as a garage. It already has new floor and side sills, main tunnel is solid and has new cross member ends.

Now the real mess is at this bit so if it means engine out box out axle off then so be it. I just wish i had some help and a bigger garage......

[kennatt]

unless you are a Very Good welder,you will find doing it from underneath an absolute nightmare, mig welders don't like working upside down,can be done ,but takes quite a bit of skill.the weld will not penetrate properly. Take the advice,after a good survey of the value of the rest Turn it on its side the job will be a lot easier.

[nam]

As far as I can tell this is all I need to weld in section wise. In this picture I have edited am I right?[frame][/frame]

Also just to note this is what I welded above the area into the seat sections. They were rusted badly too.
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[SteveClem]

This is way out of my league but I'm sure that if you have the determination you will get there. Probably will cost more than the eventual value of the car but that doesn't always matter. All hobbies cost money.

[Trickydicky]

Hi Nam, here is a topic with the measurements, http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... easurement

[nam]

Thanks all. I will heed the advice and not work under the car, take your point about mig welders not working upside down. I've only started getting comfortable with welding and want to keep practising so with the car on it's side it will be much easier. Plus the rest of the new floor needs to be welded from underneath.

So I have just read the Morris Minor restoration book I have and read how to get the engine out so that is my next job, take the bonnet off and engine out. I don't have a hoist so I might get some chains and a few people to help lift it out. Thinking to leave the gearbox in and maybe the axle but if they cause issues then they will be out as well. Then see if we can put it on it's side maybe on some old tyres and plenty of cardboard.

Thanks Richard I will keep posting progress on spring hangers on this thread so everyone can let me know if I'm going wrong.

[les]

My question was based on not having read your resto thread! However if you've done that work already, it puts things into perspective, and you certainly would not give up now, stubborn or not! You've managed the other repairs, so hopefully the rear end will work out.

[Mark Wilson]

As far as I can tell this is all I need to weld in section wise. In this picture I have edited am I right?

You've obviously got the rear hangers to do as well, but the biggest job is piecing in the structural members above the area you've marked. The panels I've highlighted, which are covering the front of the seat box, are not providing the structural strength which the rusted steel behind used to provide. Much of the upward force from the spring hanger was transmitted to the flange originally at the joint of this panel and the floor.
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Your photo appears to show that you have not pieced in or replaced the step sill or the curved chassis member, so you've got those to do to restore the structural integrity.
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On the positive side, I've had to replace as much as this, but I had the advantage that it was sound enough for me to be able to measure and mark accurately before I cut it out. Here's my repair to the curved chassis member (don't be confused by the homemade reinforcing angle you can see - that's because it's a traveller). You can just make out where I plug welded an angle to replace the bottom of the seat box - the driver's side was worse so I replaced it completely with 2mm steel with an angle folded at the bottom to form a flange (slightly OTT but I had the 2mm available....)

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Definitely don't give up!

[nam]

Thanks les, yes i've come too far now!

@Mark - so if I get some 1.5mm then basically build some plates like the diagram below convering the blue, then the orange is the spring hanger rough location to weld on after. I would cut the metal from under the seat and weld in new metal. Is that what you mean?[frame][/frame]

[Mark Wilson]

Hi Nam,

Not really possible to form a clear idea of what you intend to do from your diagram. The basic principle you need to follow is replacing the structure as closely as possible to the way Alec Issigonis designed it, which in this case means restoring the strong front to rear boxed beams formed by the sill step and boxing plate in the front half, and continuing back to the curved chassis and rear spring hanger. Any repairs should follow the original multi angled profiles, with any new steel strongly welded in to form a continuous structural element. The seat box is another important structural member and should span between the sill sections and the transmission tunnel. If you can get the flange at the bottom of the front vertical part of the seat box in exactly the original position this is a useful guide, as the rivet holes at the front of the replacement hanger should be positioned on this flange.

When all these sections are in place you can weld on the part of floor pan which the front hanger is welded to - it should be plug welded to the bottom flange of the curved chassis and to the bottom flanges of both parts of the seat box, before butt welding to the adjoining floor. I would strongly recommend using the hanger which comes welded on a shaped plate, as the profile is quite a complex pressing which matches in with the sill sections and forms the curved edge of the inner wheel arch. The pressing gives it a lot more strength than flat steel, and it is one of the most highly stressed areas of the car.

Although they are both based on Travellers I suggest you have a good look at the restoration threads by Taupe and Neil MG - they are the masters at restoring seriously rusted Minors.

Mark

[nam]

I have one spring hanger on a plate the other is not. Ok, well firstly I am going to aim to get the engine out hopefully this weekend or soon. Then get the car on it's side. I understand that the area where the spring hanger front is going to be welded in needs to have strong structural strength. So I will get the car sided and take more pictures. I'm imagining welding quite a few areas to build it up before the final spring hanger plate is welded. I know at least how it needs to look.

One question, can I leave the gearbox in and turn the car on it's side as reading manuals they all say removing the engine is easy as i'm planning to just un-hook turn and lift it out. Gearbox requires a lot more mess.

[les]

Once the engine is out the gearbox will be unsupported. Leaving it in would be more trouble than removing it. Not only that but it gives you a chance to clean the whole underside, if you're that sort of guy of course!

[kennatt]

once the engine is out,it's easy to drop the gearbox, as above makes cleaning up easy. Don't stand the gearbox on the bell housing ,if you do take it out,tempting, but all the crap run into the first motion bearing and wrecks it,Good luck