Starting issues.

[akuchanny]

Hi, I havent worked on the minor for a while after the last 1275 swap as the weather has been cold and horrid. I finally got back to it today. I feared the head gasket was gone, so did a compression test, but got readings of 170 PSI on all cylinders so happy with that. Then reset the valve timings, which was a chore without a dog nut (the temp engine hasnt got one on it - note to self must sort when its back out) but they are all set to .12 and it came to time to start up, tried, it wouldnt start, re checked the valves, and found one was still slightly out, so rectified, and then turned over again. it tried a few times, then a strange noise came from the starter, as if it was not connecting, and I could feel it vibrate next to the clutch pedal. I was loosing light, so a freind pulled the starter out partially whislt I was replacing the rear wheel studs, as one hadd also sheared. It looked as if the teeth where fine, and the ring gear looked in fine fettle also. So I replaced the starter, and the same noise and no engine turning. Tried it in gear to see if it was conecting, no movement just the noise. So stopped. Tried on last time with finger, toes and knees crossed…. to find no sound at all. So now thinking the pull start solenoid has also packed up.

I then paritially adjusted the clutch pedal, but need to do it again (having a helper who drives and automatic is not very helpful) as it now has a bit too much play.

I am hoping its bushes, and not damage to the ring gear, but no calamatous noise of sheraing or fracturing, just the screech of the starter (before that stopped too)

Was wondering if anyone had any ideas? As the car is modified and its 'normal' engine is currently very high compression (soon to be changed for force induction) I have considered the modern high torque and low weight starters, especially as the box will be repalced with a type 9 (which I already have with a shortened selector) but am waiting until a good pay day for the fitting kit.

I did have a poke around the fuses today as well, and this seems to have casued a few electrical issues, so will try to chase those when I get sometime, but as I understand it the starter is not a fused but direct draw on the battery.

any ideas, hope or advice would be great, especially as I was massivley looking forward to driving the car again after a few months.

[panky]

I wonder if the ring gear has worn in one place and the starter is just slipping on it. Try turning the engine a little so the ring gear is in a different position and try again.

[bmcecosse]

Flat battery ?? The starter fit with a 1275 sometimes needs 'adjusting' to make sure the teeth engage , and dis-engage properly. Why is it not starting?? Is there fuel present?

[akuchanny]

Hey guys, the ring gear looked fine, and I did try it on a few different sections so that dosent look like the issue.


There is fuel, pump is ticking away happily. And power in the battery, and also the jump pack that was tried. Its the orginal minor starter motor, that has been with the car since I bought it. It has started mant times with this block, to run it up but I havent driven it due to a clucth issue that I was going to adjust today….

The battery was turning the starter, it just sounded like it wasnt engaging or had worked loose, but it hadnt moved from its bolts. The compeletly dead issue the ignition lights and drops out, when the starter is pulled, but no noise, and now nothing happens. So I seem to have made things worse (or my friend has) my plan during the week is to pull the starter and bench test it. positive on the lead and neg on the body. and see if it turns over, whilst looking at the gear on its shaft. Then if thats okay, try the solinod first, then still no juice, the starter will be replaced, with a high torque new style perfomance item.

But still stumped as to why it should do this after even turning over a few times today, but not starting.

[chesney]

The 'completely dead' issue could be a poor earth.

[mike.perry]

If you have a pull start then you will not have a solenoid, just a push button on the other end of the cable under the bonnet.
Are you sure that the timing is correct 1342 anti clockwise and timed on no1 not no4?
Find a few more friends and try push starting it
If still no luck kick the hub caps

[bmcecosse]

The symptoms entirely replicate a flat battery (or a bad connection as above)... Charge the battery !

[akuchanny]

Hey guys,

Battery has been charged and switched over still same issue. timing is correct and anti clockwise, I was driving the car, apart from a first gear issue and then a blown exhaust manifold, both on the list once it runs again….

have kicked the hub caps hasn't helped ;) will pull the battery out again and re attach to the charger. although seems futile with a charged battery.

[bmcecosse]

So - the starter is whirring away like a dervish - just not engaging? It will need to come out to inspect the Bendix drive.

[akuchanny]

It was then, it stopped all together. so I am looking to pull it out and re check it. but that looks like a job for during the week now. I will keep you posted on what I find, but will bring the battery in and whack it back on the charger again, also to check that I am not suffering a random power drain.

[bmcecosse]

And you said at one point that the 'lights go out' - is that so? Is the starter jammed in ?? Can you turn the engine by hand ??

[akuchanny]

Hi I just charged the battery again, as a saftey margin, re connected and the igination light still lights up and turns off when the starter is pulled. I have Never said the lights go out, just mentioned the igintion and oil lights. After checking the fuses, (I have quite a few additions) I have now a few additions that arnt working, but that can be solved once the car is running.

So it is not a battery issue, as I first said when I described the problem. I still can only see it being either a started motor or starter switch issue, as these are non fused items, that are both connected to a fully charged battery, and the starter is still agter making the noise it made, refusing to turn at all.

The engine does turn by hand, and the when the starter is pulled there is not sound, or sign of life.

the car does not have a starter nut fitted to the crank as it is on a spare engine currently.

[chesney]

It sounds like a starter earth issue to me. The ignition and oil warning lamps go out, indicative of all available current going to starter, but poor earth/return so pulling more from the battery.

[akuchanny]

Okay I pulled the starter, have found its eaten its split pin and the castelated nut has started to work loose. It also has broken the spring behind the nut. I then tested the starter on a jump pack and it span up, so it looks like a connection / earth as well as the broken sprin end. Although I may replace the push pull starter as a belt and braces approach.

I have not heard of the spring on the starter doing this before, is it something that has happend to anyone else, also is it a repairable part or something you can't get hold of now, unless its in a whole unit?

I may still go for the uprated option as it should help with cranking over the modified 1275 that normally lives in the car.

[bmcecosse]

The fact the lights go out (yes - the warning lights - that's what was being discussed ) tells us there is either a VERY bad battery connection - or a HUGE power draw - ie a dead short in the starter... A 'bad earth' can't draw power - so that's not the problem. The pull switch will be fine - just fix the starter. But it may have been damaged by the 1275 flywheel - you MUST check that the starter can engage and dis-engage fully - there is sometimes an interference...and that will ruin the Bendix - as seems to have happened in your case. None of it has anything to do with fuses - not at all relevant to engine starting.

[akuchanny]

I am aware of this , was not sure if you had the right end of the stick. The confusion has been why its suddenly occured in the first place, as the car did start and drive. the battery connections are solid, and clean. No issues there, battery has also been fully charged over night with a charger conditioner.

My gut feeling is that the split pin no longer being in the castelated nut has caused the nut to work its way down the shaft thread and pinion gear to no longer connect to the fly wheel, as the spring has not pushed it into postion, and the spring has broken also. This would account for the noise the starter was making.

The switch seems to have an issue as well, as this has stopped working and no power is going to the starter. So this also happening just when the stater was checked and tested, so it may has partially burnt out or shorted, I have little trust in this unit so its definatley on the list. The fuse issue is an aside, as I must have dislodge something, just seems to be a sluky car moment!

So far the plan has been this...

Order new switch (to make sure that there are no weak links in the starting chain) as no power is getting to stater, may have shorted here as suggested. Have had a few issues with it in the past, that have resolved themselves in the past. So its time has come, and then I will check over all the electrical connections.

Order new hi torque starter motor, just waiting on the supplier to confirm part numbers as there system was having issues.

Hopefully wednesday / thurdsday parts will arrive, and be fitted. (will fit both, as I am farily sure the switch is a cause of this latter problem of no juice to starter)

If this then has not solved the issue I have only addded £15 to the bill, as the started has indeed had it, and needs to be replaced, Have been advised by supplier that the standard item will not be up to the job, something I also agree with. Also augmented by the fact that the spring is not a part I can order, so will go for the uprated item.

If this hasn't fixed it, I have no idea where the power drain would be, as all fused systems are seperate, and the connection to battery and motor, only has the switch in the way.

So unless there are anyother ideas, of direction to look at, I am sturggaling. I wont have an update until parts arrive.

[bmcecosse]

Why would the lights go out if the switch has failed??? You most certainly DO NOT need a high torque starter to start ANY A series engine - no matter how much it has been modified. My Mini engine was ~ 100/110 bhp and started easily even in cold weather on a standard starter.. How many BHP is your engine giving ?? Is the high torque starter pre-engaged ?? You can most certainly buy a complete Bendix to repair your old starter.... which will include the internal spring - or is it the big rebound spring that has been damaged ? If so - have to wonder how on earth that could happen.... Whatever starter you use - I urge you to check the engagement carefully.....

[akuchanny]

Last time the old engine was on the rollers with a hif 38 as it wa sbeing run in it was at 90 bhp, with the bigger carb around the 100 - 110 bhp mark. Then when it was running a charger at the rear wheel it was around 40% higher again. This is the spare engine, as that one is out due to a leak in the gasket between the front plate and the block. I am guessing it will be around he 70 to 80 bhp.

Surely my choice in new parts has little to do with the problem at hand, a dead starter; and the desire for a lighter more effficent unit to replace it. The fact that the switch may have an issue internally that is allowing it to illuniate the ignition light whilst the igniton is on, but the switch itself could have shorted or blown in a way that its making a connection, but not passing the current through to the motor. Considering it is two high power cables, a starter and a switch box operated by a cable, this seems the most likley culprit.

Surely the alignment would have cause issues sooner if it was off??? and would have worn the gears on the starter shaft, and made noticable damage to the flywheel teeth, which is not the case. After pulling the unit and viewing it my feeling is couldn't it have been a failed split pin, that has caused the sprung loaded end to move out of position and then damage itself, whislt no longer meshing the teeth of the starter to the fly wheel? Surely this would give the orginal sound of a fast spinning motor with not contact to the fly wheel, then after attempting to start it (whislt annoyed) the switch under strain has shorted, blown or developed a partial fault.

[bmcecosse]

Oh yes - all possible - the switch shorting thing 'highly unlikely'. I just don't want you to waste hard earned on an unnecessary and not inexpensive 'high torque' starter that may destroy itself first time you use it if the flywheel alignment is not correct. But carry on - it's your cash and your car!! A supercharger engine is even easier to start - nice low compression . For me -I would shove in another normal starter (I have a few spares..) and try that first... You seem to be taking the advice offered - from a distance and without full knowledge of the facts - as some sort of 'challenge' ! Advice is offered in good faith - to try to help. I'll not make any further comments on this thread. Good luck with it!

[akuchanny]

No challenge, just feeling frustrated by the car. No offence meant or taken, just as unlikely as it seems I had a similar switch issue in the past. where it stoped working, and then after pulling it out and it mysteriously came back to life. So have had my doubts about it.

As I said I am struggaling to see what else apart from those elements, that could be causing the issue, will keep you posted once I have had a chance to get parts. The new spec starter is only about £60 more than a new old style. I dont have any spares otherwise I would have tried that first.

It was very obvious when I pulled it that the spring mech on the end of the shaft was very loose, at least this is the issue with the starting and gear connection, as its been fine for months before hand. Although I will double check the alignment before attempting and possibly destroying a new starter.