DAS AUTO (British vs German car programme)

[moggiethouable]

In What car,s reliability survey for 2012 BMW and Audi came 25th and 26th respectively,JLR and co werent any better,the Japs still rule the roost.http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/what-ca ... 12/263555/
One ex chairman of GM said "the best thing I ever did was employ people who know more about the business than I do"
Wether the Chief executive officer is German British or whatever race isnt really that relevant.
The fact remains the people at our level design and build cars to a very high standard, and forever giving someone else the credit for that does us no justice at all.
The programme raised the question why do the Germans appear to be better at it than us,my argument is the war flattened us financially, when I say us I mean Europe.
We only paid off the "lease loan" agreement/debt for the warships we took from the USA in the final year of Tony Blairs tenure as P.M. for instance,so the ships we leased, we were still paying for a full half century later, so much for the special relationship eh?
Perhaps Germany should have paid for them as war reparation.
Under those circumstances and the financial burdon of war, we could not hope to compete with the Japanese or Germans who have no such militarial burdon.
They possess no Army, air force, navy, or even territorial force of any note.
I also reiterate my point that Cranfield et al are manned not exclusively but predominantly by British Engineers.
If you speak to German visting Engineers as I do, you will find ironically that they are continually being told the reason we keep Mini and other Marques in uk production plants, is because our British counterparts are far more productive per man hour than their German co-workers based in Germany.
Always remember that successive governments need to keep your eye off the ball, the ball being money, their money, as long as the power elite can hang on to their money, by convincing you you cant have any cos it aint really there to be had,you are right where they want you.
The most productive car plant in the World? More productive than BMW Mercedes or Audi?
Nissan Sunderland.
Manned by?
The Japanglish.

[LanceNZ]

I think my late father said it best - The English will invent, the Germans will perfect, and the Japanese will make it affordable!
I too am of a mixed background. My father ran a workshop in Auckland called the Classic Car Clinic which specialised in old pre-80s english cars. I started working for him in the holidays as a kid and learnt the "old way" of doing things. I have since worked for BMW for 21 years and am now the Training Manager (Product and Technical) for BMW Group New Zealand. In my early days at Head Office NZ, I was given the job of Technical Support for Rover (c2000 - before BMW sold to Pheonix). All I can say is what an INCREDIBLE difference in technology and quality. We had the last of the old Minis turning up in NZ brand new with rust issues because they had unpainted areas on the floor! - nearly all Rover 200s needed rust repairs to the rear hatch hinges before they were sold or complete roof replacements!
A few years back, I visited our MINI plant at Oxford. I spoke to some of the workers about how they felt about the BMW takeover of MINI. They said that at first they were all mightily [Don't swear or you will be banned - Admin] off and many left. But those that stayed have said things have definately changed for the best. One guy said that in the Rover days, they had 2 spare heads for the Kukko robots that assembled the cars in the body shop - a failure of one would shut down the line for half a day. Now, each robot has a spare unit on standby and a failure will only cause a 20 minute delay! Once they got over the German attitude and auditors (which I still struggle with!!!), they had to admit things were better!
But hey - I drive a new BMW 328i every day but I still love restoring the Traveller - I love its simplicity and honesty!

[kevin s]

As somone has said much of the image around vw etc is nothing more than good marketing, nowdays weather it be vw, ford, GM, bmw etc most of the components come such come from the same suppliers to the same specifications, they all make the occasional mistakes and have similar quality issues. Because all cars are so good image is now all that is left, vw charge a grand or more extra for what is under the skin the same car as a skoda or seat just because of the badge, and if you want an audi add 2 or 3 grand.

[Matt]

Working for vw, having several VW's in the family and personally owning a 14 year old Bora which is in all round excellent condition including all original brakes pipes with 120k and engine/gearbox/flywheel/turbo never touched. If that was a 14 year old rover/ford/Vauxhall it would at least have been re brake piped + welding.

I think also it is the way you treat a car, maintain/service/clean regularly esp in British weather

Maybe I'm just biased, but I wouldn't own any other make of modern

Hmm, so thats why my 13 year old focus (which is used every day, abused, had numerous minor knocks, and never washed) with 160,000 miles it is on its original brake pipes, hasn't needed any welding or major work? Ok I have replaced discs, pads, wishbones (140K), clutch (130K), front wheel bearings (150k) and rear drop links (110K), but you would expect that on a high mileage car - especially one worked as hard as I work it! I must admit I serviced it a fornight ago - it been really really manic for me recently and the last time it was serviced was about a year (35-40,000 miles) ago I am anticipating it lasting another year or 2 (~250,000) before I get rid of it. Oh, and this one cost me £600 18 months ago.

Personally I get Fords, other than the rust issues (and escort wishbones )of the past, they have been totally reliable, never needed much doing (other than the consumables) and parts are cheap! E.g. an escort diesel fuel filter is less than £2 from a motor factor.

Ford started getting their act together with the Focus and subsequent models have all been better rust proofed etc.

[minor65]

Yeah 35000 - 40000 miles between oil changes would leave me too.

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Nothing in the programme mentioned the 'bread and butter' (and the more high-class) German marques which disappeared long ago: Borgward, Horsch, Trippel, Wartburg, Trabant, Champion, Lloyd, Goliath &c. &c.

If it weren't for Austin allowing BMW to manufacture the Seven under licence, they would've gone down the pan in the 1930s - no bad thing IMHO - as nobody wanted their overpriced cars.

Audi, formerly Auto Union, or DKW, made the better-than-average cars, i.e. DKW Sonderklasse and the small Junior. Now, as Audi they are bought by people who think they are onto a good thing yet really are buying a tarted up VW, which is in turn the same as a Seat or Skoda.

Mercedes-Benz, apart from quality problems in the 1990s, were solid, best quality automobiles. But they are an old-man's car, and you'd have to be an old man to afford one.

Note these are all high-priced marques. Comparable, in fact, with UK makes that have survived - Jaguar, Range Rover, (or in the case of the following nowhere near the same league) Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Daimler.

At least I am safe in the knowledge that despite my old banger being built in the thick of the labour crises of the 1970s, it is all paid for and my own, is solid built and, at nearly 40 years old, is giving more cheap and reliable service than many recent cars.

[Hubert]

Nothing in the programme mentioned the 'bread and butter' (and the more high-class) German marques which disappeared long ago: Borgward, Horsch, Trippel, Wartburg, Trabant, Champion, Lloyd, Goliath &c. &c.

It is interesting which of the German manufacturers you have picked out as an example for your point of view. Let me add a few things:

Borgward, Lloyd and Goliath were three makes belonging to the same company, the one of Mr. Borgward from Bremen (who must have been a similar personality as Lord Nuffied). Each make had its own place in the company, Lloyd produced the small cars, Goliath the middle class, and Borgward was the top of the range. Its rôle was about the same as BMW holds today, producing luxury cars with a sportive touch. The company with all three makes went bancrupt in 1961 because Mr. Borgward was unable to pay debts worth only a few hundred thousands of Deutschmarks. None of the banking companies nor the state of Bremen wanted to give him a short term loan, so his imperium was liquidated. Interestingly, the debts could be payed off at 100 %. There are still rumours that the company was forced into liquidation by intrigues, because they were getting too close to the market leader Mercedes Benz. Today the plant at Bremen is owned by Mercedes which produce the C class there.

Trippel was not a make of cars. Mr. Trippel was the designer of the Amphicar, the car that could also swim. As no other types were produced, this make was only filling a niche.

Horch was, together with DKW, Wanderer and the (original) Audi company part of the Auto Union which was founded in 1932. Here again, each make covered a segment of the car market, and Horch was responsible for the top end of the market. Their luxury cars were competing with those from Mercedes. DKW made the small cars, all with two stroke engines, and Wanderer and Audi served the middle class.

Champion existed only between 1946 and 1955 and was one of the many very small companies which tried to mobilize Germany after WW II. They only produced open two-seaters with engines between 196 and 452 cc, and no great numbers were built. In 1955 the name and production equipment were bought by motorcycle manufacturer Maico, and the car was then called Maico Champion, but production ended in 1958. The car production of Maico and Champion could be placed in a line with similar small companies like Kleinschnittger, Messerschmitt, Dornier, Fulda or Zündapp (and many more).

Finally Wartburg and Trabant are makes of the former German Democratic Republic and were part of their IFA (Industrieverband Fahrzeugbau). They were the only makes of the GDR and two of the very few possibilities to buy a car for inhabitants of the GDR. When they appeared on the market, the Wartburg 353 and the Trabant 601 were good cars for the period of time. But as all attempts to modernize or replace them by new models were cancelled by the government, they had to last far too long and were completelky outdated in 1989, when the reunification started. Althought both cars were equipped with four stroke VW engines from 1988 on, production ceased in 1990. The former Wartburg plant at Eisenach is now owned by Opel, and the Insignia is built there.

I find the history of the Auto Union after the war is especially interesting. Apart from a DKW-plant in Ingolstadt all other production plants of the Auto Union were in the Russian zone, and the Russians dismantled most of the machines, so no more cars could be assembled. At Ingolstadt the workers repaired the bomb damaged plant and started building the DKW F 9, a model which was ready for production when the war broke out, immediately after decent steel was available and the production of cars was allowed by the Allied Forces. The car was called F 91 and subsequently developed to the Auto Union 1000 of the 1960s. They had a big success with the small DKW Junior which competed with the VW Beetle, but only few people wanted to buy their last model, the stylish F 102. The problem was that in the mid 1960s only few people still loved their two stroke engines. When the company moved into financial difficulties they were bought by Mercedes Benz, and their chief engineer started developping a four stroke engine for the F 102. When the car was ready, Mercedes decided to sell the DKW company, and it was bought by VW. At that time VW was only producing cars with air couled flat four engines which were also getting a bit outdated, and the sales were dropping. So they welcomed the newly developped car, whcih they called just Audi, reviving the prewar make of the old Auto Union (Audi is the Latin word for Horch >listen<, and Mr. Horch founded this company after he left the company bearing his name). Later the car became the Audi 60, Audi 75 and Audi Super 90, following the devellopment of its motor. The Audi 60 was followed by the bigger Audi 100, and the next new model, the Audi 80 was the basement for the new Generation of VW cars with water cooled engines. Without the purchase of DKW from Mercedes and the technology they acquired with it, VW wouldn't exist today.

As you see, the history of the Germen manufacturers can also be quite interesting.

Cheers
Hubert

[JOWETTJAVELIN]

Thanks for taking the time to write that very informative post, Hubert.

I am afraid I have made a crass generalisation when I said 'Audi are a tarted-up VW'. The engines and model range are very different, but of course being part of the same organisation, some parts and designs are bound to be shared.

The auto industry generally now has what they call a 'platform' on which many 'different' cars are based, this platform being used by many different manufacturers.

I just get annoyed sometimes when these programmes come on the telly and tend to make a mockery of UK auto heritage, and often praise the cars from other countries as if nothing ever went wrong for them. There were good cars and bad cars from all sides.

I think I have made my point now and will shut up on the subject.