Hole in floor - Patch or replace ?

Post by **iandromiskin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:15 pm

This is going to be very hard to visualise until I post a pictures at the weekend, but I got my black saloon home today after a service and I started to remove the carpets and clean the floor. Now I knew I had a small hole (drain hole as I was told its called) but naturally it got slightly bigger - there are now four small holes in the floor measuring maybe 1-2cm in diameter. They are located in the middle of the floor underneath the brake pedal area, so the very front of the floor panel.

Its not a big area so I was wondering if I would get away with just getting it patched with a small plate as the surrounding metal seems ok. Does anyone have any experience of this no doubt common problem ?

I'll try and get a picture tomorrow or over the weekend to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Post by **cormorant** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Don't patch as it ends up being a water trap and causes further problems. Cut it back to sound metal and butt weld a plate in.

Post by **Dean** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:46 pm

I agree, when cutting out you might find the metal is quite weak around the holes. Cut it all out, make a plate. If you are not comfortable butt welding make the plate overlap the hole slightly, sit it on the inside and weld it on the inside. Then go under the car and seam weld.

Post by **alzax3** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:56 pm

NEVER patch if you're going to keep the car (or for that matter even if you're not!) Nearly all the welding work I had to do on our rescue Traveller was cutting out rust that had spread because the previous owner had 'stuck a plate over the problem'. It doesn't solve it, it just hides it for a year or two after which it comes back MUCH worse. Chop out all the rubbish and replace a nice new piece of steel, you'll be glad you did in the future!

Bonus point - in a lot (obviously not everywhere) of cases, you can end up doing the weld from above, which is the most pleasant way to do it!

Post by **Mick_Anik** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:28 pm

I agree with the above, but I do the following if I don't want to do a small repair immediately. Say, I find the holes you describe in November - way out of welding season for me!

I'd clean the area with a flap disc on a grinder, hammerite both sides and then cover each hole with a suitable waterproof patch....with just 1/8 of an inch overlap, while the hammerite is still wet. Then, while the hammerite is still tacky, add another coat to both sides.

This will keep out water but not lead to anything getting worse, over a reasonable amount of time. Just like putting it 'on hold'.

I have been known to do this, and then forget about it for a few years:).

Post by **iandromiskin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:19 pm

cormorant wrote:Don't patch as it ends up being a water trap and causes further problems. Cut it back to sound metal and butt weld a plate in.

Yeah, thats what I was thinking all right. Sticking a plate over the holes will obviously just hide the problem. I get around to sorting it out soon. I hope to post a picture on Sunday.

Post by **alanworland** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:58 pm

Cut it out make a piece to fit the hole you cut then butt weld it in grind off and if you have done it any good you shouldn't know it's been done. Hold the pieces flush with magnets - works a treat!

Post by **iandromiskin** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:42 pm

Stripped out in the interior of Gertie today to start winter rust proofing and found some more interesting holes

The interior as I left it this evening. Lots of fun and hole hunting ahead.

This one shows a small hole in the front of the nearside chassis leg. Not sure how many more are lurking as I have to wire brush the underside yet. But if this is the only hole what do I do about it ? Is it a half chassis leg time ???

This one shows (if you look close enough) the holes I was talking about above that I found in the floor below the brake pedal (Right Arrow). I found another weak point (the metal has cracked (Left Arrow)) at the point where the chair support bracket sits on the floor. Not technally rusty, but a crack none the less. Any suggestions as to how to fix that problem ??

The hunt continues. There will probably be more.

Post by **MarkyB** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:06 pm

It's hard to tell from your pictures, post some bigger ones. The website will reduce them if needed.
The floor looks OK to me, little holes can be repaired with mig welding or just count them as drain holes.

You need to take the sill covers off (the sloping "door step") and see how it looks there as that is where some of the structural strength is.

As long as the metal isn't too thin the crack could be gas welded.

Post by **iandromiskin** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:14 pm

Yeah, I'll take some bigger photos tomorrow and post them. I just ran out of time earlier. Inspecting the sills is on my list all right. I just sprayed some penetrating fluid on the bolts and left it till tomorrow. Tomorrow is another rusty day.

Post by **iandromiskin** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:23 pm

Right.... had a bit of a play again today and managed, after a great deal of bolt frustration, to get the nearside kickplate removed to reveal the horrors underneath.

The background to this car is that I bought it in Dublin off a man who restored them for a business and he said he'd 'restore' it for me. But as you can see some short cuts were taken in the sill area. Not only did he not replace an obviously rusty boxing plate (I checked an old photo form 2002 and its the same, so on the plus side it didn't get worse) but he bodged the welding of the plate. Those T-sections are actually holding it to the bottom sill which as you can see was presumably put on wonky. The boxing plate will obviously have to replaced, but any suggestions as to what to do with the wonky sill if anything ???

This is an closeup of the hole in the floor underneath the brake pedal. Its not that big, but I didn't have a scale to put in the pic.

This is a closeup of the seat bolt mount where the floor has become weak and cracked. Any suggestions.

Even though it isn't this thread is begining to sound like a restoration project. If I carry on it'll end up in that section soon ????

Post by **mogbob** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:45 pm

The fact that you are talking about switching this thread to the Restoration section tells me a lot about your current line of thought.

The extent of the restoration is dependant on your own standards, how long you intend to keep the car, your welding skills,tools and garage facilities plus the depth of your wallet and the time you want it off the road.
Start by throughly cleaning the "suspect " areas with a wire brush (various sizes / shapes ) to reveal the true extent of the rust and how thin the metal that is left is. (Body weight will spread the seat mount crack over a period of time if no action is taken).
You will then be in a postion to take an informed decision as to the way forward.
Don't leave the cleaned up areas untreated for too long, at the very least spray it with some rust treatment.

Bob

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:52 am

cormorant wrote:Don't patch as it ends up being a water trap and causes further problems. Cut it back to sound metal and butt weld a plate in.

I agree, NEVER lap weld a repair in as the rust will come back and take even more of the floor with it. Go to a decent classic car restorer who will butt weld a piece in rather than get a local garage to poorly lap weld a patch over.

Or better still, buy a welder and do it yourself!

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:56 am

Just seen your pic with the cracked floor. Depending how long the crack is, and having seen the other holes at the front, you may want to consider replacing the whole drivers side floor pan. They are not expensive. The repair will be much better for it as well.