Crossmember replacement

Post by **Benjy** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:04 pm

Long time no post, but I'm in trouble again...

How much work is involved in replacing the centre crossmember and does anyone know how much (roughly) a moggy garage would charge for doing it?

Despite my poking and proding around before buying the car, I failed to spot that the previous owner had just undersealed over dirt! And I thought I'd been so good - sigh.

I now have 2 cars sitting around going nowhere, just because I can't weld (yet). I probably ought to do something about it, but seem to get less and less time to play these days (Don't undertake car restoration with a baby around - it won't happen!).

On the plus side, I've managed to persuade my brother to buy a tidy little 4 door.

Ben

Post by **pskipper** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:16 pm

When I was first looking for a Moggy (just last year) I was quoted around £1000 for replacing a crossmember as they have to remove the wiring loom etc.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:54 pm

I was quoted around £1000 for replacing a crossmember

Many places will do a complete floor, sills, crossmember and rear spring hangars for £1000.

How bad is the crossmember? You can patch them up if you know what you are doing but that will only be a temporary job to last 2 to 5 years or so (the rest of the crossmember falls to bits sooner or later

).
95% of rotted crossmembers can be repaired with a 'crossmember end' rather than the complete thing. This makes the job a lot smaller as cutting out the complete crossmemebr is a major job!

Post by **Chris Morley** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:00 pm

9 out of 10 Minors just need the crossmember ends doing. The middle section often gets sprayed with a nice coat of rust killing oil.

How long it takes and how much it costs depends on the condition of the surrounding floorpan. £1000 is a joke unless the whole floor pan needs doing. If you need a (relatively) local specialist who do good & strong welding try Chertsey Minors. They charge £30 an hour and you can save money by taking out the interior yourself and knocking away the flakey metal. I would guess they would charge you £200-£250 for both ends? Let me know if you need their details.

Post by **Benjy** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:22 pm

I haven't scraped away all the old underseal yet, but the floor looks & feels good from the inside.

Thankfully the side of the crossmember that's gone is the exhaust side, so it's the easiest end to replace, but from what I remember the rusty bit is quite near the middle - I can't be bothered to go look now cos it's cold & dull.

Thanks for the info. I think I need to spend some time uner the car to asses the damage. Perhaps the reality of the situation will be slightly better than I thought when I saw "Centre crossmember corroded" on the MOT fail sheet?

Will keep you posted!

Oh, is there any way of telling how good a chasis leg is? I'd like to waxoyl them, but would rather replace the leg first if the metals getting a bit thin.

Ben

Post by **Chris Morley** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:33 pm

If the middle part has a localised area of corrosion it will probably be easier and cheaper to weld in a bit of replacement plate (assuming you don't want concours perfection). The crossmember is made of nice thick metal so this should be quite easy for a specialist - it really depends on the extent of the rusty area. If it's only this area you will only need to remove the passenger seat and N/S carpet.

Is this the only failure on the MOT sheet?

Thickness of the chassis leg is very difficult to judge without drilling holes. Look very carefullyafter removing the underseal for any cracks , egg-shell like metal or holes. If you don't find any put on a nice coat of underseal and spray with waxoyl inside and out.

Post by **Benjy** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:46 pm

Chris: No, the car also failed on the O/S chasis leg (pea sized hole in the middle of a large dent, probably where the tester hit it) and 3 bump stops missing.

The bump stops were there 6 months ago, so perhaps my dampers need a top up, or perhapd it the evil (more so than most) speed bumps in our road!

Post by **Chris Morley** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:23 pm

OK, the bump stops will need replacing (quite easy for you to do unless the area is rusted). The dented area will probably need cutting away and a small patch butt welded, although it might be possible to simply pull out the dent and weld the pea sized hole if the metal is sound. It sounds like the welding won't be too expensive in any case and your car should be fit for another year's driving. Don't be tempted to let it sit for months as the brakes will start to seize. Minors need to be used daily, especially if they sit outside in the rain.

The MOT examiner should have tested the dampers and failed them if anything was wrong. More likely your speed humps simply wrenched the bumper stops off. They were probably old, hard & brittle anyway

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:47 pm

More likely your speed humps simply wrenched the bumper stops off. They were probably old, hard & brittle anyway

I would aggree on that one. Mine now has no bumps stops thanks to Leamington speed bumps and my lack of patience.

You must have found a thorough MOT man!

As for the chassis leg - once they start to need patches they often don't last another 5 years. The main failure is the eye bolt pulling out! Unfortunately an MOT can't verify the internal strength of the reinforcing plates in the leg at the eyebolt. The only way to get close is to remove the gearbox floor and have a look inside the leg using a strong torch / lamp. Whilst you are at it, hoover out all the rot and debris - if there isn't a lot then maybe the leg has a few years left.
If the leg is dented around the whole, I would guess the metal is weak - it would take a big blow from a sledge hammer to make much of a dent on a solid chassis leg.

Post by **Chris Morley** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:59 pm

Certainly a (MOT pass patch) over the dented area will be a false economy. Assuming there is a fairly large area of weak metal (say apple sized) a decent patch should be butt welded onto the sound metal after the rotten stuff is cut away. Chertsey minors did that to one of my chassis legs back in 2001 and did a very good job of it. Of course replacement of the whole leg is the Rolls Royce option but if the money isn't available then a decent repair by a specialist is the best option. I guess this might cost Benjy some £300 to get his car back on the road but that's cheaper than buying another Minor with an MOT. And he'll save the road tax compared to a Eurobox.

Post by **Benjy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:48 pm

I replaced the bump stops on the pickup not that long ago, again probably the speed bumps. I used a different MOTer this time (closer) - I've never failed on missing bump stops before and would have been quite annoyed if that was all that was wrong!

I have no intention of quick MOT pass fixing the car, but I do need to get moving, the pickup has been in the garage for 4 months now and I've already done the brakes on that once. Unfortunately money is not in abundance at the moment, the original plan was to sell the pickup to part pay for the Traveller, but that hasn't happened yet! I am a step closer however, as I have a new fuel tank for it.

A friend is a very good welder, so if he's not too busy, I'll get him to quote me for the work. I do seem to remember him commenting that he hadn't worked on Minors for a while - he got fed up with it because by the time they came to him they always needed new crossmembers - still, to harm in asking!

£300 is not bad, but how long will it be before I have to spend that again, and again to keep patching things up. I think I'd rather spend more now and know I've got a sound underside, but it just depends how much it's going to cost.

Thankyou all for the advice.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:14 pm

THe only advice I can give with the crossmember ends - dont let the guy cut them down in order to reduce the work. Riley had them repaired like that and then the adjacent bit rotted!
The moral of the story is - use the complete crossmember end repair panel, not two thirds of iyt!

Post by **brixtonmorris** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:48 pm

if the full crossmember is replaced. the minor shoud be given to someone who knows what they are doing and has done it a few times before. its a precise and difficult job. certain datums must not be removed from the car to add alignment of new crossmember. you also my need new sills and center floor above cross member my need to be sliced out. the wiring is the least of the problems, prop brake pipes torsion bars all to be removed, and reset. i would say at least 500. phone up bath and find out.

Post by **Kevin** » Tue May 11, 2004 1:03 pm

Of course replacement of the whole leg is the Rolls Royce option

Most times a half leg repair is all that is needed and normally costs £150 - £160, but looking at Chertsey labour charges probably a bit less.

Post by **nick_h** » Tue May 11, 2004 11:30 pm

Benjy

I have the same problem as you. I was shown the problem by the MOT inspector last week in graphic detail! I have decided to bite the bullet and take the car to a Minor specialist for replacement, along with most of the rest of the underneath. I bought the car as a long-term hobby and knew that the patching would have to cease at some point, but was hoping it may pass this year (National Rally and others to attend), but this is not to be. I have decided not to sink any more cash into patching up a bad floor. My nearest "specialist", advertised in Minor Matters is Minorite in Leicestershire. Has anyone used them and can recommend them? Their ad reads OK but a personal recommendation would be re-assuring.

Cheers

Nick (and Hermione, sadly in temporary retirement)

Post by **Kevin** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:40 am

I purchased a few bits from them when I used to visit my daughter at uni in Leicester a few years ago and the work seemed very good and were happy to show me round the workshps and even had a couple of cars for sale with high standard work done on them (they used to track race a special with a very low minor type body) and they give a long guarantee with their floor replacements and they even sell a two piece mild steel exhaust system which is much easier to fit than the one piece and although I have not had any work done by them I dont remember hearing of anyone complainig about them.

Post by **Benjy** » Wed May 12, 2004 1:55 pm

I took the car to my friend today, he looked at the crossmember and, although only the passenger side NEEDS replacing, the other side will be an MOT failure soon enough. He didn't have access to ramps / jigs sufficient for the job, but took me round to a friend of his.

The guy used to work on Minors and has quoted me for the following:
Cut out floor section above Xmember, leaving transmission tunnel in place. Cut away Xmember, leaving just the top centre arch in tunnel.
Put in new Xmember, one side at a time, welding to new floor section. FInally weld 2 halves together.
"That's the way we used to do it when I worked on these things", he said.

He comes very highly recommended and apparently his welding work is 2nd to none.

He quoted around £350 for the job, if I supply the Xmember (£35) and he'll patch the chasis for nowt. Ian already checked the chasis leg and it was very solid apart from the small hole (now the size of a 10p piece - the dent must have been a trick of the light).

£350 is cheap right?

Ben

Post by **salty_monk** » Wed May 12, 2004 1:58 pm

Sounds pretty cheap to me... I guess he's leaving the arch in the transmission tunnel to save some dismantling time on the prop etc
As that bit is covered in oil normally anyway, I'd have thought it was ok... Get under there with some Hammerite & Waxoyl when it's done & still clean!

Post by **Kevin** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:00 pm

Ben if you need a price comparison ring Minor Medics & Minor Mania and see what they quote.

Post by **Benjy** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:08 pm

Thanks Kevin,

Minor Mania estimated £400, but didn't ask about floor condition
The London Morris Minor Centre quoted £399, but didn't ask about floor.
Minor Medics said £250 if floor is OK (probably not), but floor (panels) only costs £20, so might as well do that at the same time anyway. Didn't want to offer a firm quote without seeing car, which I respect.

From the sounds of it, the quote I've been given is pretty reasonable, and much closer to home than any of the other guys, so I'll probably go with it.