Stuck in 1st gear!!

[mrmorrisminor]

What a day! On the plus side I can vouch for the efficient club insurance recovery service, all loaded onto a flat bed with no silly questions or repair attempts and all within the hour!

Now for the down side.... when crawling across Rochester Bridge in eve rush hour traffic my 68 saloon got stick in 1st gear! There were no warnings, no noises out of the ordinary, she slips into gear much easier than some Mogs I've driven so nothing to indicate a worn box..... but now it's firmly wedged! I've tried applying a little force (don't want to go too mad!) and generally wiggling and rattling the stick about but no joy...... it drives great... but only upto 15 mph forwards!! when travelling and you try to take it out of gear it gives a slight noise, the sort you get when you change down to 2nd before you lift the clutch...

Anyone got any ideas??? I guess it's a box out job. I've repaired most bits of a mog now but never ventured into the gearbox.....

[bmcecosse]

I suspect due to wear/tear it has gone a bit too far ....... If a really GOOD tug doesn't get it out - maybe try on the 'overrun' - then I'm afraid it is box swap time.........

[mrmorrisminor]

Thank you, I did try the over-run ..... I was afraid of giving too much force incase I caused damage..... I suspect it's time to play swapzies in that case!

[mike.perry]

Are the three bolts holding the gear lever into the remote linkage tight? Maybe they have come loose and the lever has jumped out of the selector cup.

[mrmorrisminor]

Thank you. Sadly the bolts are tight and the gearleaver is firmly housed Not looking promising ......

[bmcecosse]

You can't really do any more damage to it - but of course - even if you DO get it to come out this time - you never know when it will do it again......... Swap is on the cards I think.

[newagetraveller]

Two possibilities.
Firstly something has gone wrong wrong with the selector fork mechanism for first/second gear such as the locking screw falling out.
Secondly some debris floating around in the gearbox has lodged itself somewhere and is preventing the first gear cog from moving. This could be part of the cage that holds the bearings in the ball bearing for the first motion shaft.
Both these problems can be verified by taking the side cover off the gearbox and having a look at the internals.

[bmcecosse]

And this is what you can hope to see![frame][/frame]

1st Gear selector is the one on the left -it's sitting in neutral in this pic. The actual gear is 'inside' the selector - you can just see the teeth of the matching '1st gear' on the laygear - in the lower left corner.

[mrmorrisminor]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I'll look out for a replacement and examine mine when I remove it. I would like to know that it is reliable as I tend to use it a fair bit. I'm interested to see what it will turn out to be!

[RobThomas]

The selector balls have popped out too far. Hapens a lot to Midgets when they get a bit of abuse on the track. Might it have happened when you were in 1st and using the engine as the brake (over-run)?[frame][/frame]

In this pic the balls have popped out too far after the lever was shoved forwards too far on the over-run. The tricks are to either place a washer somehow onto the shaft to prevent the selector fork from being able to go too far, to drill and tap a thread or bolt into the tailshaft end of the gearbox casting to limit travel or to renew the rim of the plate (3 x bolts) on the top of the tailshaft so that the lever cannot be shoved too far into first gear.

Don't drive'n'tug the gearbox. Get someone to rock the car with it in 1st and the clutch left up. Wobble the gearlever hard and hope that you can get those pesky balls to pop back in.

Here is a (contrived) shot of the balls back in.[frame][/frame]

[bmcecosse]

Aye - that's what I thought had happened - great picture there Rob! The worry is - will it happen again and again ?? I like the suggestions you make to limit the travel - but what should limit the travel in the first place ? It's so many years since I had one of these boxes in bits.......

[mrmorrisminor]

Thank you..... I was in slow moving traffic so was probably using the engine to brake to some degree. I will try the rock and pull method next time I visit mother (car is on her drive until I get to fixing her). The box itself sounds lovely and sweet so it would be nice to repair it if possible.

[mrmorrisminor]

Well, it has taken me a while to get round to it but I have finally dropped the box out and taken the side cover off. The sight that greeted me was the same as in Rob's first picture.... the balls had popped out!! I have popped them back in and all is free again but if I push the selector fork by hand from inside the box I can get it stuck in again. So... any views on the best of the above remedies? Are there any parts I can replace? The general condition of all the gears is great so I would like to repair the box if possible.....

[RobThomas]

In the last geartooth pic, the bronze casting needs to be prevented from going back too far. You can drill/tap a thread in the rear of the box and run a bolt through to stop further travel or even slip some sort of thin ring round the shaft to limit aft movement. IIRC, it is less than a 5mm ring that you need. Locking wire, thin pipe clip, tie wrap etc might work.

[RobThomas]

Actually, I think you can clamp a piece of steel bent at an angle under that bolt/nut combo on the bronze arm and bend it back so it slips between the back face of the bronze and the casting.

[mrmorrisminor]

Thank you. I will return to the garage this afternoon and decide the best way forward.

[mrmorrisminor]

Right...... I compared my 'stuck in gear' box with an old box that the barings have given up on. When you select first gear there is a healthy 'clonk' where the selector rod comes up against the inside of the end housing, thus limiting the travel. On my 'stuck' box, there was not really a 'clonk' at all and the selector fork and rod travel an extra few mm.

so.... I dropped the end housing off and drilled, tapped a bolt to act as an adjustable end stop. I have temporarily hung it back together (waiting for new gaskets) and after a little adjustment on my new end stop the same healthy 'clonk can be heard and no balls popping out. First gear can be deselected once more!

I will have a final adjustment and fit a locking nut to my bolt when I get the gaskets. So... fingers crossed!

[bmcecosse]

You can only hope! But there must be an underlying reason for this to happen - it's definitely not normal. I've treated these boxes very badly in the past - and never had this happen!

[8eab]

I recently suffered this problem of the gear jammed in first, i rebuilt my gearbox 3 months ago and worked perfectly in use, the problem happened when driving downhill in first, where it would not go into second.
I removed box and saw exactly the problem that you see in the photos in this thread, after my autopsy, i found that the only way this effect can be reproduced is if the inner cog of the first gear moves forward toward the second gear syncro cone while the gear is engaged in first.
there is no merit in limiting the travel of rod that pushes the outer sleeve, as you can see in the pictures in earlier threads, you can see that the gap between the inner gear cog is smaller when the ball bearings start to pop out.
once this happens, pulling on the gear rod in attempt to move it just makes it worse, because the little pin that lies inside the inner cog has moved up the mainshaft groove and locks it in place, so it merely pushes against the inner cog making it worse.

it can be remedied by just using a screwdriver to push the inner gear cog of first away from the second gear syncro cone, and this will allow the pin to retract and the gear will move correctly. but this means a major task in order to access this area.

The big issue for me is, how can i prevent this from happening again and is there any modification to prevent the forward motion of the inner gear on first from moving.
i rebuilt the first gear hub assy with new springs and balls.[frame][/frame]

[kennatt]

Actually, I think you can clamp a piece of steel bent at an angle under that bolt/nut combo on the bronze arm and bend it back so it slips between the back face of the bronze and the casting.

Dam dam dam I threw away a box some years ago with exactly the same problem,had a spare one so just did a swap didn't bother to have a look inside, the boxes were two a penny back then,very interesting,recon the above would do it a treat,no need to even take the box out to do it. One to remember